Pope says Ukraine must have the ‘courage of the white flag’
Pope Francis has reiterated in a new interview that Ukraine must negotiate to end its war with Russia, but this time he used language — borrowing his interviewer’s phrase “white flag” — that drew attention and raised questions about the question whether the Pope suggested that Ukraine surrenders.
On Saturday night, Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni immediately clarified that the pope meant “ceasefire and negotiation,” not “surrender,” when he mentioned the white flag, a universal symbol of giving up.
But the pope’s words and others used during the interview have underscored how the Vatican has often baffled Ukrainian officials and supporters as they struggled to understand their position.
Early in the war, many Ukrainians expressed frustration with Francis over his refusal to specifically label Russia and its president, Vladimir V. Putin, as the aggressor in the conflict.
Francis eventually became more vocal in expressing his support for what he came to call a “tortured Ukraine,” citing Russian aggression and praying for Ukraine’s innocent victims. But the Vatican had also tried not to take sides in the war, partly to preserve the possibility that it could be called upon to negotiate a peace deal, a hope that many geopolitical analysts see as illusory.
Francis used the term white flag in a television interview recorded in February with the Swiss television channel RSI. The topic of the interview was the color white. An interviewer asked Francis whether he believed there was a need in Ukraine to “surrender, the white flag in this case,” or whether such a capitulation would only legitimize the actions of strong men.
According to images of the public broadcaster’s interview, which will be broadcast later this month, Francis responded by saying that the fear of encouraging the aggressor was “one interpretation, it is true. But I believe that the strongest is the one who sees the situation, thinks about the people, has the courage to fly the white flag and negotiate.”
Mr. Bruni said the pope used the image suggested by the interviewer to signify “the cessation of hostilities, the peace achieved with the courage of negotiation.” He pointed out that Francis said later in the interview: “Negotiation is never a surrender.”
But in the same sentence, Francis calls negotiation “the courage not to drive a country to suicide.”
The pope has made other statements that have made Ukrainian officials and supporters uneasy. He once said there was a secret Vatican “mission” to bring peace to the conflict. His habit of granting audiences to allies and officials of Putin’s government and his general condemnation of the arms trade — while Kiev needs weapons to defend itself — have also undermined some Ukrainians’ confidence in the pope’s support for their cause .
In the interview with RSI, Francis said that today “one can negotiate with the help of international powers, they are there, aren’t they? That word negotiation, it is a courageous word.”
He added: “When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you must have the courage to negotiate.”
“And are you ashamed of yourself?” for negotiation, he continued, adding that if one instead continued along the same path, “how many deaths, and then? Ultimately it will get worse.”
He added that it was crucial “to negotiate in time and find a country that can act as a mediator.”
“Today,” he continued, “for example, in the war in Ukraine, there are many who want to be mediators, right? Turkey for example. Don’t be ashamed to negotiate before things get worse.”
Francis himself has repeatedly tried to position the Vatican as such a mediator. When asked in the interview whether he would be willing to play such a role, he replied: “I’m here, period. I said this.”
Mr Bruni, the Vatican spokesman, added on Saturday that the pope remains hopeful that a diplomatic solution can be reached for a “just and lasting peace.”